“The most rewarding part of what I do is seeing the positive outcomes and positive outcomes for us and our […]

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“The most rewarding part of what I do is seeing the positive outcomes and positive outcomes for us and our clients aren’t necessarily investment returns or something quantitative, their life moments they’re being able to retire with dignity and to be able to be financially independent and to be able to see their kids or grandkids or great-grandkids get an education and not be buried in debt or issues, it’s buying the dream home, or the vacation home, or the, or being able to help the charity that makes the most, that means the most of them.” Eric Brotman is a CFP and PCP who is the Chief Executive Officer of BFG. Financial based out of Baltimore, Maryland. It’s an independent firm assisting clients with wealth creation, preservation and distribution. He has over 25 years of experience in financial planning. And he is here to share some knowledge. In fact, recovering the four ways to pay less in taxes. He is also the host of don’t retire graduate, a podcast dedicated to teaching listeners how to advance into retirement in a more efficient way that helps them financially as well.

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How To Avoid Paying Capital Gains Tax? Freedom From Your Fear Of Selling With Eric Brotman

Brett:

My next guest is a financial expert. In fact, he is a CFP and PCP who is the Chief Executive Officer of BFG. Financial based out of Baltimore, Maryland. It’s an independent firm assisting clients with wealth creation, preservation and distribution. He has over 25 years of experience in financial planning. And he is here to share some knowledge in fact, recovering the four ways to pay less in taxes. He is also the host of Don’t Retire, Graduate, a podcast dedicated to teaching listeners how to advance into retirement in a more efficient way that helps them financially as well. Hey, welcome to the show, Eric Brotman. Eric, how are you doing?

Eric:

Sure, the story is that I started financial planning and wealth management back in the 90s, and created an independent firm in 2003. And have grown it to now an organization with 21, folks, eight financial advisors, we work as a team as an ensemble. We have clients in 30 states, and manage money for multi-generational families. And so we’re not looking to do corporate work or employee benefits or executive benefits necessarily, what we want to do is work with, with high net worth families, upwardly mobile families, and families that are trying to grow wealth, preserve wealth, and ultimately make sure that most of it stay within their family after they go as well.

Brett:

Excellent. And Eric, I’m curious, you know, I think our listeners are with our guests who have been so successful and have so much experience before we dive into some of the strategies that you use to help folks with what you do. Who was Eric growing up? In other words, I think we’ve all been given superpowers, right, a superpower, I call it a gift from God. And maybe it’s one or two or three, some of us have more, but maybe what’s that one gift that you were given? Eric? And how does that help how you help people today?

Eric:

You know, even at a very young age, I think I was a connector, I was the one most likely to put together a game on the playground or to put together a group for the prom. And so just from all ages, I still consider myself a connector. Now it’s more social media sometimes than it is physically. But at the end of the day, I love connecting problems and solutions and people who can help one another. So I think my superpower is just that.

Brett:

Excellent. And did you play any sports growing up or do anything like that? Where maybe you’re the captain of the team and helping lead the squad forward?

Eric:

I played lots of sports and none of them well. So I was never the team captain. Although I was frequently the one who worked the hardest in practice, because my Super Bowl was practice. I was not much of an athlete. You know, at the end of the day, I look back on that and think, man, I really tried.

Brett:

Absolutely. Well, thanks for sharing that. And I think that it’s so good to have the connector, right? Because otherwise, you know, a people’s communities aren’t built as much and, and, and leadership isn’t advanced unless we’re all working together as a team, right. And so to have that gift is a great gift to have. And so thank you for sharing that. So Eric, what’s the most rewarding part of what you do?

Eric:

The most rewarding part of what I do is seeing the positive outcomes and positive outcomes for us and our clients aren’t necessarily investment returns or something quantitative, their life moments they’re being able to retire with dignity and to be able to be financially independent and to be able to see their kids or grandkids or great-grandkids get an education and not be buried in debt or issues, it’s buying the dream home, or the vacation home, or the, or being able to help the charity that makes the most, that means the most of them. So I think it’s all about outcomes. It’s all about the whys. The hows are in a textbook, and the whats we can figure out and the who’s we can meet, but ultimately, the whys are what matters. That’s why we do what we do.

Brett:

I love that I read the book by Simon Sinek, Start With Why maybe you have too, but it truly is, I think, why we do what we do, and the inspirations behind it. And again, all of the gifts that we’ve been given to make a difference in people’s outcomes, whether it be with our, you know, the services we provide, and or the financial legacy that folks can leave, right, which leads into the opportunity to take advantage of legal tax loopholes, right, and finding ways to pay less in tax. Let’s be honest. Right. So with that being said, I’m curious, you know, four ways to pay less in tax, maybe do you have a couple you want to share with us?

Eric:

Sure, there, there are four strategies available to almost every American family, where you can park money, where it will never be taxed again, legally, of course. And some of those are obvious. So when I say hey, here’s a place where you can invest money, and it’ll never be taxed. Again, what a lot of people immediately think of is the Roth IRA or the Roth 401k. And that’s absolutely true. That is certainly one of the options. The other ones that maybe get a lot less exposure, but you get a lot more. One of them is the Health Savings Account. HSA ‘s are amazing. They’re a tax accident, as far as I’m concerned, because they are the perfect vehicle where you can get a deduction for your deposits, you can grow tax-free. And you can make tax free withdrawals as long as it’s for health care. And quite frankly, I don’t know anybody who’s going necessarily at any couple, who’s going to be fortunate enough to never have medical expenses at some point in their lives. So a lot of people think HSA has to be used immediately, and you have to park money and then spend it on deductibles or coinsurance or all this other nonsense. The fact is you don’t you can, you can save that for decades and let it grow and never pay capital gains tax, which is wonderful. Another strategy is a 529 plan. Yes, it’s for education. So there are strings attached to it. However, it’s a spot where you can put money away, you can get it out of your estate, which is very significant, particularly in certain parts of the country, you can get it out of your estate by naming your children or grandchildren or someone else, your next-door neighbor, as a beneficiary, you’re never gifting the money, you’re not giving it to them, it’s still yours. But it’s outside of your taxable estate. It grows with no taxation. And as long as it’s used for a qualified educational purpose, which in a limited way can be for private school can also be for college or grad school, or you could even go back for your Ph.D. bread. If you were thinking about doing that. It’s always an option. But at the end of the day, there will be someone in your family or in your community at some point that’s going to want educational funds, and you could put money away for decades and never pay tax again. And the last is whole life insurance, which people absolutely don’t understand. It’s incredibly powerful to sort of be your own bank and have your own collateral and be in a position to utilize that. And so these four strategies between the whole life insurance, the HSA, the 529 plan and the Roth IRA, I wrote an E-book that’s available for free download, it can be found at low tax book.com. And anyone who’s interested in it can read that I go through examples, I go through the details. And I also tell my personal story. Because quite frankly, there’s a fair amount of money of mine that is in those four strategies, and it’s working my tax bill. It’s only gruesome because of earned income. It’s not gruesome because of my money at work.

How To Avoid Paying Capital Gains Tax? Freedom From Your Fear Of Selling With Eric Brotman

How To Avoid Paying Capital Gains Tax? Freedom From Your Fear Of Selling With Eric Brotman- “Wealth is the ability to fully experience life.” – Henry David Thoreau

 

Brett:

That was just a wealth of information about three minutes that was worth every bit of it. And so just a little quick overview. So to get the Roth, you got the HSA, you got the 529 plan and get the whole life insurance and the key is understanding which tool can help you achieve what you’re trying to achieve and do it in a tax-efficient or tax-free way. Right. Very powerful. And really great. So that being said, walk us through capital gains tax deferrals that, you know, challenges this high net worth individual who’s in fact, the baby boomers $17 trillion is passing. What have you found that has been helpful for clients that you’ve had in the past who are selling a highly appreciated home, business, commercial real estate or anything else like that?

Eric:

You know, traditionally the thought about selling a highly appreciated piece of real estate was that you had to do a 1031 exchange in order to move money from one like property to another and there are that is the most booby-trapped situation I’ve ever seen with the qualified intermediaries and the amount of time you have to select the property and the way you’re forced to use it. It’s incredibly complicated unnecessarily. So quite frankly, And I think a lot of people wind up avoiding it just because they’re afraid of it. And, again, rightly so it’s complicated. So on the real estate front, the solutions that are available to most people, the ones that are known to most folks, and I know you use a strategy that is somewhat unique and spectacular because when you were a guest on Don’t Retire, Graduate, you blew our minds, which was fantastic. But you know, most of the time, it involves charitable giving, and wealth replacement trusts and charitable remainders. And there are some really creative ways to do a lot of, to do a lot of good, and also to do well, but not everybody is inclined to do that. And some people would rather maintain some control. And that’s not always easy. And so coming up with a way to do this with, whether it’s farmland, whether it’s traditional real estate, commercial or residential, whether it’s business interests, especially closely-held interests. I mean, there’s only so many things you can do with stock options. At some point, you’re going to pay the piper. And again, you have the charitable opportunity, but with farmland real estate, and then closely held businesses, there are some better strategies than the ones most of us know about.

Brett:

Yeah, that’s the key. Right? And, and thank you for sharing that. And thank you for the plug here with the Deferred Sales Trust. And it’s really about understanding and providing clarity, right for proven tax deferral strategies with trusted advisors. And that’s key, right? Because it’s not just the strategy, it’s the professionals. And it’s the team that you build or build around you to help you execute and I can’t help but think of like the health analogy, right? If I, if I go to a doctor every year, and that doctor is helping provide the flu vaccine and checking my vitals and bloodwork to see, well guess what, if something pops up like you know, a torn ACL or a nice soldier surgery, he’s not going to be the person that does that, right? It’s going to be the specialist who does all those surgeries, he’s done 1000s of surgeries. So you want to make sure that you’re working with someone who has had success with those surgeries, they haven’t had patients die or haven’t had patients go to jail per se. Right. And they’re excellent at what they do. But maybe the general practitioner doesn’t know about that. So would you speak to just the importance of making sure that you’re building a full team around you. And either A: they have access to those others, you know, specialists, and or B: they’re not just, you know, settling for the one that they always use, if that makes sense.

Eric:

It makes total sense, Brett, and you’re right in my wheelhouse. You know, we call it the Dream Team. And the challenge here isn’t finding qualified people to do various things. It’s finding qualified people to do those various things, and then to collaborate and work together on your behalf. So, you know, we consider ourselves the generalists. We are the financial equivalent of a physical exam, where the practitioner is going to go and look at the whole big picture. And then we’re going to find specialists all over. So it might be mortgages, it might be insurance-related, it might be investment-related, or banking, or, or any number of things, you might even be working with your HR department, your lawyer, your tax accountant. Ultimately, no one can be good at all of those things. And certainly, you don’t want to go to a generalist for a very specific niche surgery to use that medical term. And so I think it’s important for us to know how to not necessarily diagnose or prescribe for those things, but how to understand when there’s a need for a specialty. And then to bring it in the wisest primary care physicians are the ones who identify your need for specialists, not the ones who solve all your problems. Because quite frankly, no one can do that. And, you know, we see folks who come in and, you know, I tell them, we’re going to do a physical exam and then if you need a cardiologist and a podiatrist, that’s who we’re going to send you to. We’re not going to send you to a dentist to look at your feet generally.

Brett:

Exactly. No.

Eric:

It’s the same thing financially, yeah.

Brett:

Yeah, it’s so well said and important I think the key to what you said is to collaborate and work together, right? Get the egos out of the way and let’s all work as a team let’s approach it with a humble open mind and let’s also poke holes where it needs to be poke holes and ask the tough questions and that’s where we all succeed and we all grow right and that is but the key is long term track record success. Right and then bring in and stay in your lane, if you will, right. That being said, I had a quote yesterday, I wonder what you think about this quote, and, and it went on like this I either as Warren Buffett or someone else said it that Warren Warren repeated it. “The wise do today what fools have to do tomorrow”, right? So the wise prepare today, they get educated, they invest today, they clarify their options, right? They, they’re using the Roth, the HSA, the 5.9, the whole life insurance policies, maybe the deferred sales trust, but they prepared today, what fools have to do tomorrow and I can’t help but think of, once you’re, you know, you’re about to close the deal and it’s going too fast. You’re running out of time or you’re in that 1031 He didn’t know there was a backup plan that could save your failed 1031, which we just did for a client on a $7.6 million deal in Georgia, your selling is highly appreciated apartment complex, and we saved 1.1 million in tax. But he prepared a year before that, right. And he had educated himself and he had equipped himself, he asked the tough questions. So the wise do today, what fools have to do tomorrow. So any thoughts on just preparation and making sure that you’re prepared for all of these things, because let’s face it, finances is a big thing. And a lot of it can just be you know, disappear really quickly.

Eric:

You do have to be prepared, but you don’t necessarily have to pack your own chute. So it’s really important if you’re, whether you’re skydiving, or whether you’re doing some kind of financial transaction, having someone who has done it before in that tandem jump will make a huge difference. And so, you know, I, I would love to do some of those things. I belayed down cliffs, which is amazing, but I sure as heck didn’t do it by myself. And it didn’t just say, Hey, I’ll try this today on my own. When there are needs for special history, you’ve got to pull them in. So I’ll give you another quote. And I have no idea who said it. But quite frankly, I love this, which is that no one person has a monopoly on great ideas. There’s so much benefit to collaborating. In fact, one of the reasons but one of the reasons Brett that we built, the firm that we did is that every one of our clients has all eight of our advisors looking at their plans before they’re ever presented, we spend an enormous amount of time looking at it from every different angle, we want someone with 35 years experience and also someone with three years experience who’s just come out of their CFP program looking at this, because quite frankly, some of their education is fresher in their minds than it is in ours. Despite all the continuing education, so forth. There are state of the art solutions for things that maybe younger practitioners, no, I’m certain that’s true in medicine, you got to know somebody who came out of med school in 1968. And somebody who came out in 2018 has different training. Not that one is necessarily better than the other, they’re just different. And collaborating across generations, across perspectives across backgrounds, using diversity to your benefit, diversity of experience diversity of specialty. Quite frankly, I think that’s one of the biggest keys to success is build the dream team, and let everybody do what they do and work together. It’s not rocket science.

Brett:

So well said and but it’s missed, right? It’s often missed, or it’s forgotten, or perhaps, we’re distracted. Right? And it doesn’t happen as well as it could have, right? So building that dream team and have a vision, build a team and make sure you work with people who are going to be collaborating and working together. Absolutely love that approach with eight advisors seeing the plan before it’s even presented. And of course, creating a place and I think that starts with leadership, Eric, creating an environment and culture for your company in your team, where it’s safe to talk about new ideas. And it’s safe to respectfully challenge other ideas. And, and I wrote a book called crucial conversations, and it talked about, we all have these Crucial Conversations. And the most important thing to do, and one of the most important things to do is to make sure that everyone knows that it’s safe to have an idea in the middle. And the idea is going to be here and we’re going to discuss that. And as we do that, and we can create this environment, things can actually progress and move forward. And the emotions can go down and, and we can be productive vert, and it’s called instead of acting out in violence or acting out in, in reason, right? And so that’s super important. Okay, so shifting a little bit more here to just talk about charitable giving, right, you know, why is it important to create, create an impact or charitable giving, Eric?

Eric:

You know, I think lives are made not by what you get but by what you give. And I do believe there’s some kind of karma in the universe, that people who are philanthropic and generous and caring, that opportunities come to them in droves. And that’s not why they’re doing it. You know, altruism I recognize is in it’s in its foundation, purely selfish. But I’m not sure that that’s necessarily the driver around philanthropy. There are so many ways to change someone’s life. And it’s not difficult. So for example, I’m a trustee of a local university here in Maryland. And I was approached at one point years ago, to look at a naming opportunity on campus to slap my name on something. And I thought about it and thought, hey, that’s kind of neat. And then I remember back to my own college experience, where I was in Smith Hall and didn’t know who Smith was, it didn’t matter to me whatsoever. Smith’s maybe been gone 100 years, it makes no difference to me. And I thought, well, that is nothing but feeding my ego. Let me find another way to do it. And that’s not that that gift wouldn’t have been important or valuable, but what’s fine another way. So instead, we created a scholarship, an annual scholarship called a gap scholarship that allows juniors and seniors whose financial aid is no longer able to cover the difference between what they have to pay and what they can pay. And it keeps them in school, it helps make sure they graduate. And every year three, or four or five students will graduate, at least in part, because of our philanthropy. We’re changing lives. That is the coolest thing. And whether it’s education, or whether it’s animals, or whether it’s seniors, or whether it’s kids, or whether it’s, you know, we’re involved with, with Junior Achievement for financial literacy, they’re making a huge difference. These kids come out of school and have, they’re making 100,000 $200,000 education decisions on student loans before they’re allowed to have a Budweiser. It makes no sense. They have no training for that, they have no perspective on that. And so I think philanthropy can really change lives, wherever you want to do it, whether it’s in your community, whether it’s in your country, whether it’s around the world. And if it can be done in a way, that also creates some tax benefits, some financial benefit. I think that’s a nice thing. There’s a reason why there’s a charitable deduction. And of course, the tax bill in 2018, removed it for about 90% of Americans no longer qualify for the charitable deduction. And you would think that that would impact the giving. And for the most part, it hasn’t, which either means people have no idea what’s in the tax code, and they thought they were getting a deduction, they’re not, which is cynical, or they do understand. And that’s not why they were doing it, it was a nice value add. But that wasn’t the reason they were doing it. And so at least anecdotally, there’s more to philanthropy than tax planning, just like there’s more to tax planning and philanthropy. So I think they can be used hand in hand. And if you’re willing to do some good, the rewards can be significant on so many different levels for your family.

One of the biggest keys to success is build the dream team, and let everybody do what they do and work together. It's not rocket science. - Eric Brotman Click To Tweet

 

Brett:

Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. And I think there’s a quote, and it’s actually by a client. I think it’s by Malcolm Gladwell, but he says “The biggest failure is not to participate”. And, and it’s the idea that we’ve been given gifts, we’ve been given talents, we’ve been given wealth, and the biggest, biggest failures when we don’t use those to help other people, right. And the biggest reward is never what we get, it’s the outcome. It’s not what we get, right? It’s not the money. It’s how it makes a difference in people’s lives, and how that in turn changes our lives. So the biggest failure is not to participate. So it’s just an encouragement to us we’ve been given to help other people. Eric, are you ready for the lightning round?

Eric:How To Avoid Paying Capital Gains Tax? Freedom From Your Fear Of Selling With Eric Brotman

I’m ready. Bring it.

Brett:

All right. So favorite book that you’ve gifted or recommended in the past six to 12 months? 

Eric:

Atlas Shrugged 

 

Brett:

If you could go back to your 25-year-old self and say, Eric, here’s the one thing I’d want you to know. I want you to do, what’s that one Golden Nugget that you would make sure you knew?

Eric:

Never ever stop working out! It is really hard to start again.

Brett:

Well said, yeah. That’ll help. Let’s see your favorite leadership quote or theme that you live by?

Eric:

The mark of an immature man is to die nobly for a cause, the mark of a mature man is to live humbly for one.

Brett:

Love it! This last question is centered around your values. Okay. And so after all your success, for Don’t Retire,Graduate.com, bfgfa.com, financial advising, and helping countless individuals create and preserve their wealth. Give back, you know, all of that, how do you Eric stay centered on your values? And how do you stay encouraged to reach new heights?

Eric:

Staying centered on my values has always been reasonably easy. For me, I think I have a decent compass for that I don’t cut corners. I don’t. I never look to take a shortcut. So I’m willing to pay the dues and, and to do the work. And, and I think by mentoring and coaching and teaching young young advisors, that’s kept me very, very sharp because it forces me to be on the cusp of not only the education piece, but also being an example people can look up to, you know, I have to think about if something happened to me today and my own family was working with one of the other advisors in my firm. Would I know they were okay? And the answer is a resounding yes. I am totally unnecessary to this process here, at least from that standpoint. And so staying true to my values is really making sure that everyone around me without sacrificing their own values because we all have our own feelings. But making sure everyone around me is prepared to do the right thing in every case. Even when it’s unpopular, even when it’s unpleasant, even when it’s expensive. Whatever it is. If we do that, we’ll never regret it. We’ll never have to apologize. Outcomes won’t always be what we want but inputs can be.

Brett:

Love that! Where can people find you? Would you mind and one more time how they can connect with you if they want to reach out?

Eric:

Yeah for folks who want to read more about the four strategies that we talked about for paying less taxes the website is lowtaxbook.com, our company website is bfgfa.com and the podcast is at don’tretiregraduate.com and we’d love to have additional listeners if they’re fans of yours they can hear your episode on AI podcast.

Brett:

Love that. Well, Eric, I want to thank you for being on the show sharing your wisdom, deal stories and inspiration. So together we can make complex tax referrals simple and passive income plans achievable and also be able to get back to charity so in ways that are going to make an impact for those most in need. So I want to encourage you to keep using the gifts and talents you’ve been given to make a difference in this world. And I would again thank our listeners for listening to another episode if we can be of any service to you go to capitalgainstaxsolutions.com to clarify your capital gains tax deferral options. So again, you can create and preserve more wealth and perhaps give more to those most in need. Thanks so much. And please share, subscribe, rate and review. Until next time, goodbye.

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How To Avoid Paying Capital Gains Tax? Freedom From Your Fear Of Selling With Eric Brotman

About Eric Brotman

Eric D. Brotman, CFP®, AEP®, CPWA®is Chief Executive Officer of BFG Financial Advisors, an independent firm assisting clients with wealth creation, preservation, and distribution. Mr. Brotman began his financial planning practice in Baltimore in 1994, and founded Brotman Financial Group in 2003, which later changed its corporate identity to BFG Financial Advisors. He provides investment, retirement, estate, insurance, and comprehensive financial planning services for families, professionals, executives, and business owners, all of whom enjoy extraordinary client service from working with multiple CFP® Practitioners and a team of specialists.

Mr. Brotman holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Pennsylvania. He earned his CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER (CFP®) certification in 1998, and completed his Master’s Degree in Financial Services (MSFS) at the American College in 2003. He is also an Accredited Estate Planner (AEP®), a Certified Private Wealth Advisor (CPWA®), a Chartered Life Underwriter (CLU), a Chartered Financial Consultant (ChFC), a Chartered Advisor in Senior Living (CASL), and a Retirement Income Certified Professional® (RICP®). Mr. Brotman is a Registered Representative with Kestra Investment Services, LLC and an Investment Advisor Representative with Kestra Advisory Services, LLC.

Mr. Brotman is serving a four-year term on the Board of Trustees for the Maryland State Retirement & Pension System as an appointee of Governor Larry Hogan. He is a champion for financial literacy education, serving on the Business Advisory Council for the Comptroller of Maryland. He is a 2009 alumnus and former Chairman of the Board of Directors of Leadership Maryland. Additionally, Mr. Brotman serves on the Board of Trustees and is the Chairman of the University Advancement Committee at Stevenson University, where he previously served as an adjunct faculty member, teaching financial planning and investment planning courses to CFP® students. He is a 2006 alumnus and former board member of Leadership-Baltimore County, the Past-President and Chairman of the Board of the Financial Planning Association of Maryland, and a member of the Baltimore Estate Planning Council.

Mr. Brotman is the host of the “Don’t Retire… Graduate!” podcast, available at www.dontretiregraduate.com, and recently published “Pay Less Taxes Now! Four strategies to Help Reduce Your Taxes Legally,” available for free download at www.lowtaxbook.com. His most recent book, “Retire Wealthy: The Tools You Need to Help Build Lasting Wealth – On Your Own or With Your Financial Advisor,” was published in 2014 and is available at most online book retailers. A sought-after speaker, he frequently gives seminars and workshops for companies, membership organizations, and fellow financial advisors.

Mr. Brotman appears regularly on television on 11 News Sunday Morning on WBAL in Baltimore, and has also been interviewed by WMAR Baltimore / ABC2 News. He has appeared in print in Wall Street Journal, The Baltimore Sun, Baltimore Business Journal, The Daily Record, Smart CEO, Investment Advisor, Fidelity Investor’s Weekly, Investment News, Journal of Financial Planning, Crain’s Baltimore, and numerous other publications. He has been featured on various websites, including Yahoo! Finance, ChiefExecutive.com, Reuters.com, Financial-Planning.com, and Forbes.com, and has appeared on a variety of radio programs, including the Marilu Henner Show and KGO News in San Francisco. Mr. Brotman was named as one of the “Maryland Power Players” by The Gazette of Politics and Business in 2010 and one of the “Very Important Professionals” by The Daily Record in 2011.

Securities offered through Kestra Investment Services, LLC (Kestra IS), member FINRA/SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through Kestra Advisory Services, LLC (Kestra AS), an affiliate of Kestra IS. BFG Financial Advisors and Brotman Financial Group are not affiliated with Kestra IS or Kestra AS.

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